Controversial form of discipline

[motherof3]

I found this article and thought it might be an interesting topic. There are a lot of parents on here and we all have different forms of disciplining our kids. I have to admit I've used hot sauce in my kids mouths for lying and cussing when they were younger. Never went as far as making them get a cold shower like this mom. My grandmother used to use soap on us kids and my mom moved onto Tabasco sauce with us. I went to work once at age 16 with my mouth swollen from a whole bottle of Tabasco (I made the mistake of laughing when my mom was pouring it on my tongue, and yep I LOVE hot spicy food now! lol) So what do you guys think? Is this mom over the top?
Is 'hot saucing' discipline, or abuse?
When does discipline cross the line into abuse?
Anchorage mom Jessica Beagley is facing child abuse charges after the "Dr. Phil" show aired video of her putting hot sauce in her 7-year-old son's mouth and forcing him into a cold shower, as punishment for bad behavior.
Here's a clip of her Dr. Phil appearance, but be warned: It's brutal to watch. The sound of her son screaming and sobbing as Beagley calmly administers this "punishment" is hard to forget.
Anchorage city prosecutor Cynthis Franklin says her methods were unreasonable. Beagley's lawyer, William Ingaldson, says she didn't do anything criminal: "Some people think spanking your child is wrong, and she doesn't even do that." (On the "Dr. Phil" show, Beagley said she tried spanking, but it didn't work, so she turned to hot sauce.)
While Beagley's case and the attention it's getting may be extreme, "hot saucing" is an accepted form of discipline in some parenting circles -- though a controversial one. One prominent supporter of the practice is Lisa Whelchel, who played Blair on the TV show "The Facts of Life" and is now a Christian parenting author and speaker.
"A correction has to hurt a little," Whelchel told The Washington Post. "An effective deterrent has to touch the child in some way. I don't think Tabasco is such a bad thing."
What do you think? Is "hot saucing" an acceptable discipline method, or child abuse?
video: YouTube - Mormon Mom Caught Abusing Adopted Son With Hot Sauce and Cold Shower Dr Phil
source and other articles: TODAYMoms - Is 'hot saucing' discipline, or abuse?

[Mark]

We've talked about this for almost 2 days now on Talkpa - http://www.talkpa.net/child-abuse-yo...1.html?t=17291

[Kid Lester]

I have no problem with the hot sauce for lying or cursing.

The cold shower with Mom berating the boy is abuse. She's emotionally scarring that child. Paddle his ass, or send him to his room with no entertainment...whatever. You don't browbeat, demean, and force your kids to cower around you. Abuse.

[terri]

My parents went the Louisiana Tabasco Pepper route with us for lying and cursing. I still swear like a sailor and you CANNOT make food spicy enough for me.

I tried the hot sauce stuff with my oldest and then he started requesting it as a condiment.

Of course, this isn't true for a lot of kids and let's face it -- I wasn't using Dave's Ultimate Insanity Sauce as punishment. I've seen some of you grown people cry over that stuff and you used it on purpose.

I think the cold shower is over the top for the age of that kid, absolutely. But - it was 50 seconds, unless some of it was edited out. Personally, I could not have taken the screams of my own child. I'd be curious to know how frequently this kid has gotten into trouble and what else she has tried as far as discipline goes.

I'm not so sure that the cold shower and hot sauce would qualify under the Physical Abuse umbrella. I think if this happened as a regular occurrence, there would definitely be a case because of the mental distress involved. Most effective forms of discipline could be argued as causing *some* degree of mental distress, though.

From DE Code:
"c. The force shall not be justified if it includes, but is not limited to, any of the following: Throwing the child, kicking, burning, cutting, striking with a closed fist, interfering with breathing, use of or threatened use of a deadly weapon, prolonged deprivation of sustenance or medication, or doing any other act that is likely to cause or does cause physical injury, disfigurement, mental distress, unnecessary degradation or substantial risk of serious physical injury or death; "

My biggest issue would be the things she was saying to him. He's too young for anything more than a, "You did x, so now you get [consequence]." I would be pushing for an Emotional Abuse finding, I think. That video was just over 3 minutes long and it doesn't seem like it fully covered the entire ranting and raving of that mom.

DE Code:
""Emotional abuse" means threats to inflict undue physical or emotional harm, and/or chronic or recurring incidents of ridiculing, demeaning, making derogatory remarks or cursing. "

Lying is something that pisses me off to no end with my kids, but at the elementary level, it is completely NORMAL behavior. Especially for a kid trying to avoid a punishment he finds so obviously uncomfortable.

[oldeschool55]

whatever happened to a couple of whacks on the butt???????

[Bellicose]

I am by no means a parent, and I don't know if I should comment here or not. But I will.

The hot sauce thing, kind of messed up, I know if my parents did that to me, I would never lie, swear or anything. Unless of course I liked hot things, which seems to have happened to Terris kids, let alone her herself. I kind of figured that they would eventually build a tolerance and it would not affect them anymore. At the point when she told her kid don't you spit that at me, I think the kid should of spit it right in her eyes, then say how do you like that mom?

The cold shower thing, that is just wrong. Damn I am 31 and I don't even like a cold shower. I can't stand cold water raining down on me. Who punishes the mom, who makes her take a cold shower? I would love to be that person, i just wanted to jump through the monitor and beat the crap out of her, just for making the kid take a cold shower. How can a mother listen to their child screaming like that. If I was that kid, I would keep throwing cold water at her for however long she made me stay in the shower.

The more and more I see things about what parents, kids, teachers, doctors, etc. Are doing these days, the more I DO NOT want to have any kids.

[ScentsyLorien]

the in his face, demeaning browbeating is what did me in. We use ,what I'm sure some people would find questionable, discipline tactics.

Kids wanna run up and down stairs like a herd of elephants? fine. They'll do it till the fall over in exhaustion. Want to fight with each other? push-ups...now mountain climbers. Again.

No yelling, just instruction and a discussion about why we don't act like a-holes.

I've been told it's child abuse...but it's generally by peers whose kids are coddled holy terrors.

[terri]

I think you're fine, SL. Doesn't sound like it comes remotely close to child abuse to me.

[Bellicose]

the in his face, demeaning browbeating is what did me in. We use ,what I'm sure some people would find questionable, discipline tactics.

Kids wanna run up and down stairs like a herd of elephants? fine. They'll do it till the fall over in exhaustion. Want to fight with each other? push-ups...now mountain climbers. Again.

No yelling, just instruction and a discussion about why we don't act like a-holes.

I've been told it's child abuse...but it's generally by peers whose kids are coddled holy terrors.

Now that is discipline, I think I would of much rather had that then to get my butt beaten any day of the week.

Which reminds me what ever happened to a good ol' fashioned butt whippin'? Geesh kids have it easy these days I tell you.

[terri]

Use an open hand. Leave no marks.

[cracker]

When that kid's Mom is rotting away in a decrepit retirement home she's gonna wonder why. Hint: Its because you made your kid take cold showers you C***!

[Joe Walther]

Folks, there is a simple remedy to all of this. It worked like a charm for 1,300-years. And, in all that time, juvenile delinquency wasn’t a problem worth mentioning. Teenage thugs didn’t roam city streets carrying guns and killing people over drugs, money, items of jewelry, brand name clothing and shoes. Kids didn’t terrorize seniors. They didn’t shoplift merchants into bankruptcy. There were no truancy problems. And, you’d have been hard-pressed to find even ONE kid handing out any parental grief.

Literacy rates and graduation rates were sky high. Kids simply were not disrespectful of paternal authority. Childhood backtalk was literally non-existent.

Then, along came the human obsession with introspection. Once that took over the social preponderance, it was all over. “Experts” began driving people crazy with stupid quotes like, “You can draw more flies with a spoonful of honey than you can with a barrel full of vinegar.” For God’s sake, any dweeb knows that you can also draw lots of flies with a small pile of you know what!

It’s been downhill ever since. And that downhill slope got even steeper once Maslow entered the picture and all the wannabe shrinks began crawling out of the woodwork spouting off about his damn Needs Hierarchy. Pretty soon, parents began worrying about how their kids felt about things… you know, as though kids have RIGHTS and that their busy parents were, somehow, supposed to give a crap. Now all the little darlings have to do is dial 911 and lie like hell!

But, you know what? We could have all that peace and tranquility back again. All we have to do is make a slight adjustment to the American system of family law and enact a statutory provision to enforce the adjustments. We wouldn’t even have to pass a Constitutional Amendment. The do-gooders already provided the necessary Constitutional authority several years ago. You have to love it whenever unintended consequences turn into unanticipated benefits!

Let’s convert this country’s Family Law Code to the ancient Roman Family Law System and its statutory provision of Patria Potestas (translation: Power of the Father). It worked like a charm for almost a millennium and a half. And, I just know it CAN work NOW! Here’s how it worked… it was the coolest thing since popcorn back then. Amazingly simple, straightforward, and absolute.

Under the statute of Patria Potestas, a Roman father’s wife and children were all considered his property. His power over his wife, children, and other members of his family was absolute. He had the legal right to arrange marriages for his children and could force them to divorce spouses they loved; he could disown a child, sell a child into slavery, or even kill a child whose behavior displeased him. He also had the same power over his wife.

His word was literally the law, not to mention absolutely UNAPPEALABLE. Think about it. No smart-mouthed know-it-all 14-year-olds. A ZERO divorce rate! No Alimony!

Now, I’m not going to get into all that moral versus immoral stuff about abortion. We can debate THAT some other time. Right now, I’m just trying to resolve the dilemma of what constitutes abuse when it comes to disciplining children. It’s an impossible task ANYWAY we look at it because we’re never going to come up with something that satisfies everyone. So, we just need to stop wasting so damn much time and get us into the old Roman system.

And, the framework for enforcement is already in place in Roe v Wade. All we’d have to do is tweak the definition of abortion. Instead of centering it on the intentional termination of unwanted pregnancies, we need to re-center it on the intentional termination of stress caused by mouthy, know-it-all, misbehaving kids.

Pro-choice or Pro-life does not matter. Once we get that definition tweaked to suit our needs, any idiot will be able to see that we’ve been doing it too soon. Under our new and improved definition of abortion, we’d put it off until about the age of… say twelve or thirteen. Think about the impact on a kid hearing the words, “OK, keep it up and we’re going to the clinic!”

Yes, I know that kids are going to be wailing all over the place, “This is not fair!” And, they’ll be correct. But, unfortunately, parents do not NOW, nor have they EVER, cared about FAIR. They care about QUIET!

Oh, and I’m sure not many women—OK, NONE—will be at all enthusiastic about this change. But, I’m sure that with certain, well timed… shall we say, “inducements,” mutually satisfying compromises can be had. And, if NOT, you can simply wait until he’s asleep—beer and a blow j… I mean back rub will put most men into a temporary coma—and then stab the bastard in the temple with a pair of scissors!

[ScentsyLorien]

Now that is discipline, I think I would of much rather had that then to get my butt beaten any day of the week.

Which reminds me what ever happened to a good ol' fashioned butt whippin'? Geesh kids have it easy these days I tell you.

We almost never spank, we save that for severe offenses...but it's in the arsenal and the kids know it. I think knowing that it's a possibility works pretty well in itself.

There are so many more creative ways to make them see the errors in their ways. One day when we have a yard that is our own, there will be a "Go dig a giant hole...now fill it back up" punishment. When there a little older, there will be a, "See all those big rocks? Make them little rocks." punishment.

We find (thus far, anyway) that hard physical labor kills two or three birds with one stone.


But again, a lot think we're way too hard on them...especially because they're girls.

[Kid Lester]

We almost never spank, we save that for severe offenses...but it's in the arsenal and the kids know it. I think knowing that it's a possibility works pretty well in itself.

There are so many more creative ways to make them see the errors in their ways. One day when we have a yard that is our own, there will be a "Go dig a giant hole...now fill it back up" punishment. When there a little older, there will be a, "See all those big rocks? Make them little rocks." punishment.

We find (thus far, anyway) that hard physical labor kills two or three birds with one stone.


But again, a lot think we're way too hard on them...especially because they're girls.

Spanking is always in the arsenal for us. My 10 year old hasn't gotten one since she was 5, and hasn't needed one. I suspect my toddlers will catch a few for the same reasons she did. 1- reasoning has ceased to be effective. This is particularly the problem when it's 2 in the morning, and multiple attempts at getting the children to stay in bed and go to sleep have failed.

2- The child engages in dangerous behavior that simply cannot be repeated due to risk of injury.

3- egregious impudence/ disrespect

All of the stuff SL describes is not abuse. It is discipline. It's one thing to have a child doing push ups, or manual labor, or whatever your poison. It's entirely another to scream at them that they're no good while they're doing it. Explain the reason for the punishment, enact it, and let it go.

[DelKid]

I fortunatley inherited from my Father the "Look" Shoot the kids one of them and they dare not get in trouble.

[Curly]

Give the kid's what they need.

YouTube - mouthy little prick get's knocked the fuck out

[Roogle]

I'm all for an old fashioned ass whipping. In tough neighborhoods. It's usually the best way to prevent your kid from getting into something he will regret for life. A good old ass whippin' has kept me out of a lot of bad situations. Or made me think twice about making a decision.

Hell, i'm a man in his 30's and i still got have those "preventative maneuvers" chiseled in my head...

[Tracy]

I'm totally guilty of the "if you don't stop, I'm going to get my hairbrush" maneuver..unfortunately (or probably fortunately), the kids know there's no way in hell I would ever hit them with a hairbrush

[ScentsyLorien]

I'm totally guilty of the "if you don't stop, I'm going to get my hairbrush" maneuver..unfortunately (or probably fortunately), the kids know there's no way in hell I would ever hit them with a hairbrush

My mom had a spoon....a big wooden spoon. She didn't really pop us very hard with it, but she made us go get it and bring it to her. THAT was the torture right there.

[Curly]

It was dad's belt in our house.