Gun in house + 9 y.o. =dead toddler

[jtan]

Just a couple points in response to JW's post(s) on this topic

First, unless the gun was left in plain sight were the children were known to have cause to be, then I wouldn't argue for criminal charges in this instance. As Joe has said, the police determined that no charges were warranted. What's done is done. I can't imagine criminal penalties doing society any more good as an example than the dead boy already has, anyway.

Second, I view a firearm as a lethal instrument to be brought into a home only under the strictest of care when there are young children in the home. To me, it is no different than if you wanted to bring a pet rattlesnake or 12 foot python into your home. Unless you can guarantee that it will NEVER* find a way to harm young children, you need to live without it.

(*NEVER I would define, as Curly has said, as using extreme precautions to ensure, as near as possible, a close to 0 probability of accident. Obviously, fate and happenstance can and do often coincide in the strangest ways to prevent certainty of most everything.)

Third, in the instance of the young teen playing with his mother's gun and killing himself- that is the boys age, guile, willfulness, and carelessness that caused that. If he was going to be that persistent in getting to something he shouldn't have, then I cannot fault anyone but him, despite feeling sorrow for the outcome.

Fourth, let's go with pure benefit of the doubt, and assume that this occurred in an extremely high crime area, where having a gun loaded and ready and accessible was virtually mandatory for safety. But if the thing that's supposed to protect you and yours ends up enabling the killing of you or yours, what have you gained? Now, I know hindsight is 20/20. But as I said in my very first post, there are no second chances. And while you can never have enough foresight to prevent all possible scenarios, keeping a loaded weapon out of the hands of an unsupervised 9 year old ought to be considered with as much care as possible. And should be eminently manageable.

If I were to interprete your view, then the best way is to do most other countries do, including mine; Malaysia. It is illegal to carry a gun, period.

Oh oh...I forgot...that will violate the first ammendment right to carry a gun... the whole can of worms open up to debate again...so please don't ...I am just being sinister here

[Kid Lester]

If I were to interprete your view, then the best way is to do most other countries do, including mine; Malaysia. It is illegal to carry a gun, period.

Oh oh...I forgot...that will violate the first ammendment right to carry a gun... the whole can of worms open up to debate again...so please don't ...I am just being sinister here

Well, it's the 2nd Amendment, but whatever

Don't get me wrong. While I do not own a gun, I strongly support gun rights. And if there comes a time when I feel that having a gun in my home is necessary, I will certainly obtain one. But right now I have 3 kids ages 1 through 10, and for me, the risks and responsibilities of managing a firearm in my home are not justified by any need for security or protection. If and when that changes, I expect that I will keep the weapon where only those in the home with the need to ever use it can realistically access it.

[paulusa302]

If I were to interprete your view, then the best way is to do most other countries do, including mine; Malaysia. It is illegal to carry a gun, period.

Oh oh...I forgot...that will violate the first ammendment right to carry a gun... the whole can of worms open up to debate again...so please don't ...I am just being sinister here

Our right to bear arms falls under the Second Amendment (But we knew what you were saying)

[jtan]

Our right to bear arms falls under the Second Amendment (But we knew what you were saying)

If I apply for US citizenship now, I guess I failed in this try

[Chase]

When I was growing up, my father kept a rifle under the bed and a hand-gun in the closet, almost everyone did. He came from a time when folks would drag you out your house and hang you. At 9, I knew not to touch the guns and I didn't. None of us did.

Hell, I remember reading about the civil war where kids 9 and up were soldiers with muskets.

Now as we become more civilized, we imagine our children as unknowing, unthinking weak individuals who need to be monitored and nursed far more than any other generation before them.

YUP, growing up I knew my dad had a super old single shot bolt action 22 from the 40's or 50's (still works today), a semi auto 22, and a shotgun in his closet and I never dared touch them without him being there....ever....I don't think he even had to tell me either, it was just common sense that them things were dangerous...

[TomS70]

Knowing first hand what damage a gun can do to a person, I choose not to own one or keep one in my home. I prefer it that way to keep any risk to my kids @ 0.

That doesn't mean I do not know how to use one (rifle, shotgun and hand guns). Once my kids are of age I intend to make sure they also learn the proper use of weapons and the potential dangers.

Do not take that as any endorsement of gun control. I'm actually a firm believer of Article 2 of the Bill of Rights.

[Curly]

Because you over simplify the problem...that's why...

Thanks for answering my question. A child dying because of someone's negligence isn't simple nor just a "problem".

This is true, but comparison was not my point.

With all due respect it seemed to be.

And, the problem is that the police cannot lodge charges against people for NOT taking extreme precautions. They can only do so for failure to take REASONABLE precautions and reasonable precautions are based on what the law classifies as those precautions apropos under the existing circumstances.

I will continue to assume that the police acted with due diligence in conducting their investigation. And, since I was not actually there and they were, I'll continue to give these parents the benefit of the doubt until I see evidence to the contrary.

I really don't care if they are charged or not, my reply was simply my opinion stating that when you have guns in the house there is no excuse for not securing them correctly let alone a 9 year-old gaining access to them.

No, that's not what Jtan meant and you know it.

To be honest, I have no idea what she's trying to say sometime.

Jtan's premise is correct whether you agree with it or not. We don't merely protect our kids, we overprotect them to the point of smothering them to death.

We pump them full of antibiotics at the slightest sign of the sniffles and then wonder why antibiotics have grown immune. We guard their every move from the time they awake in the morning to the point at which they go to sleep at night. We measure their every move and

blah,blah,blah You're getting carried away Joe. I simply (as you) take a child's death, a death that could have easily been avoided, very serious. It doesn't matter if the parents are charged at this point does it? It doesn't matter if they smothered them with overprotection or didn't.

I don't know about others, but sometimes you give me the impression that if people don't do things the way you'd do them, they're incompetents.

I'm sorry you feel that way Joe but any person who let's a child get hold of a gun in their own house IS incompetent in my opinion. Maybe it's because I've had a child's grey matter on me and have done CPR (for show) on kids who have been shot. So I'm sorry, this kind of shit pisses me off to no end. Children die but they shouldn't die because mommy and/or daddy didn't secure their firearms. So until more facts come out and it's proven otherwise, I'm looking at the parents with rage. If the kid got the gun from another location, then whoever was responsible for that should be locked up. Maybe you're right Joe, I see incompetent assholes everyday who could have saved theirselves a load of trouble if a little common sense was used. This whole thread hit a sore spot with me Joe.

[Curly]

If and when that changes, I expect that I will keep the weapon where only those in the home with the need to ever use it can realistically access it.

Short and sweet and to the point without all the other bullshit.

[Joe Walther]

Our right to bear arms falls under the Second Amendment (But we knew what you were saying)

If I apply for US citizenship now, I guess I failed in this try

Take heart, Jtan. All is not lost. All you have to do is convince them that you were ACTUALLY referring to your right to TALK about the right to own guns! In this country, an integral component of mastering the art of obfuscation is learning how to "redefine" terms.

[Joe Walther]

I removed a lot of this because relative points have been made and minds are not going to be changed. That said, and other than the fact that Jtan is a HE, I will address this point:

Maybe you're right Joe, I see incompetent assholes everyday who could have saved theirselves a load of trouble if a little common sense was used. This whole thread hit a sore spot with me Joe.

It's obvious that the post hit a sore spot with you, Curly. It didn't exactly make my day, either; and I have not come close to the up front a personal experiences you deal with as a matter of course.

But, for whatever reason you chose your profession, these horrors are part of the deal. And, as horrible as some of those experiences have been, they're not conclusive evidence that the entire country is going to hell in a hand basket being carried by hoards of incompetents.

You can assume the worst in people or you can assume the best in people... your choice. But, unless there is clear evidence either way, I'll continue to exercise my right to reserve judgment.

[Curly]

I removed a lot of this because relative points have been made and minds are not going to be changed. That said, and other than the fact that Jtan is a HE, I will address this point:



It's obvious that the post hit a sore spot with you, Curly. It didn't exactly make my day, either; and I have not come close to the up front a personal experiences you deal with as a matter of course.

But, for whatever reason you chose your profession, these horrors are part of the deal. And, as horrible as some of those experiences have been, they're not conclusive evidence that the entire country is going to hell in a hand basket being carried by hoards of incompetents.

You can assume the worst in people or you can assume the best in people... your choice. But, unless there is clear evidence either way, I'll continue to exercise my right to reserve judgment.

Thanks Joe. I knew what I was in for to an extent when I signed on for this job but how it feels sometimes is unpredictable. Believe me, I try to have more faith in the human race but damn, it's very hard sometimes. Looking and finding good people keeps me going, plenty of them out there but as you know, bad news sells. Anyway, I found the following video which doesn't give the people responsible for these kids any forgiveness. It does raise my curiousity though since no charges were filed. Sorry jtan, I was under the wrong impression with regards to gender.
Boy Playing With Loaded Gun Fatally Shoots Brother

[Joe Walther]

Thanks Joe. I knew what I was in for to an extent when I signed on for this job but how it feels sometimes is unpredictable. Believe me, I try to have more faith in the human race but damn, it's very hard sometimes. Looking and finding good people keeps me going, plenty of them out there but as you know, bad news sells. Anyway, I found the following video which doesn't give the people responsible for these kids any forgiveness. It does raise my curiousity though since no charges were filed. Sorry jtan, I was under the wrong impression with regards to gender.
Boy Playing With Loaded Gun Fatally Shoots Brother

The video adds a few more details than the written piece did. And, I have to admit that it does not add to my empathy factor for the parents. But, it also makes me believe that there is more to this.

If enough people raise enough hell about it to elevate sufficient political pressure, the LA County DA will open an investigation. The police on the scene are free to decide not to bring charges, but the ultimate decision falls to prosecutors.

If I have to guess, I'd guess that much of the decision on the part of the police had to do with culpable evidence. Real guilt means nothing in a criminal court. It's about what the state can prove: legal guilt. It does not matter how much the state "suspects" negligence, if they can't prove it, it's senseless to bring the charges.

These things are always subject to review by a local prosecutor. We may not have heard the end of it if a prosecutor detects a hint of probable cause.